There are a lot of nurse practitioners in the US–over 400,000 (compared to around 900,000 MDs & DOs), and we are training 40,000 a year. But how they are going to be used is not entirely clear. Lynn Rapsilber is an NP whose organization, the National Nurse Practitioner Entrepreneur Network, is working to help her fellow NPs with their professional and business development. She came on THCB to discuss how NPs are developing and how she thinks NPs will contribute in the future as we deal with the current crisis in primary care–Matthew Holt
TytoCare–The Last Few Inches of Telehealth?
Tamir Gottfried, the Chief Commercial and Strategy Officer at TytoCare came on THCB to show us how their remote device works to deliver the last few inches of telehealth. Most telehealth is just a video call but with Tyto’s device, the patient can asynchronously (and/or synchronously) take their vital signs including videos and pictures of the skin, ears, mouth, heartbeat et al, and share it with their doctor. It actually amazes me that they haven’t been more popular but in the last few years Tyto has made significant inroads with health plans and providers delivering their devices, as well as adding chronic care management module, with a forthcoming smart clinic (AI) companion. Tamir explained who, how what and why to me, and gave a not too gruesome demo–Matthew Holt
Penguin–The Flightless Bird of Health AI
Fawad Butt and Missy Krasner started a new AI company which is building a big platform for both plans and providers in health care. Penguin Ai has a cute name, but is serious about trying to provide an underlying platform that is going enable agents across the enterprise. They are health care only, as opposed to the big LLMs. But does health care need a separate AI company? Are the big LLMs going to give up health? And what about that Epic company? Join us as we discuss how this AI thing is going to be deployed across health care, and how Penguin is going to play. Oh and they raised $30m series A to start getting it done–Matthew Holt
Boulder Care: Stephanie Strong & Marianna Zaslavsky
Stephanie Strong, CEO & Marianna Zaslavsky, the (relatively new) Head of Growth at Boulder Care came on THCB to tell Matthew Holt about their service which delivers medication assisted treatment for those suffering from substance used disorder, via telehealth. Stephanie has been one of the leading advocates for getting patients, especially those on Medicaid, access to treatment. She led a campaign to get the DEA to continue to allow substance abuse treatment using medication via telehealth. Marianna joined this summer with the goal of helping patients get access via managed care plans. We discussed a lot about the potential for Boulder to continue its harm reduction strategy for patients, and also the potential limits that might be coming via Medicaid reductions as part of the BBB. Stephanie & Boulder are supporting a campaign called Majority for Medicaid which is raising awareness about the impact of Medicaid cuts on these patients. Some of those stories are here
You can also text MAJORITY to 50409 to urge your representative to protect the promise of Medicaid.
Labcorp, Blue Shield and my $34.95 co pay (part 5)
By MATTHEW HOLT
I have been on a quest to try to understand why I am being charged $34.95 by Labcorp for some lab tests that I think should be free under the ACA preventative care statutes, and for which my insurer Blue Shield of Californian has issued me an EOB with a $0 co-pay.
It’s been a microcosm of the chaos of American health care so far, If you want to catch up here’s part 1, part 2, part 3 and part 4
You may recall that I had paid a $50 co pay for the lab tests connected to my preventative annual wellness visit in 2024 (and I didn’t pay attention) but that when I got a $34.94 charge from Labcorp in 2025 and found that Blue Shield said my copay was $0, I decided to investigate.
I have had a lot of help from Rhea, a senior customer service rep at Labcorp who I think is having nearly as much fun with this as I am. She told me that the co-pay Labcorp tries to collect is the lower of $50 or whatever the total bill is. For the 5 tests I had, Labcorp’s agreed rate with Brown and Toland Physicians (the Blue Shield-owned IPA that contracts with their HMO, of which I am a member) was $34.94. So that is the answer as to that charge.
But it still doesnt answer a couple more questions.
- Why was a subsequent lab test I had as a follow up also shown by Blue Shield as a $0 copay on the EOB?
- Why weren’t the lab tests I had considered preventative under the ACA and therefore also free?
Rhea’s guess for the first answer is that Labcorp receives a capitated amount for lab tests from Blue Shield or Brown and Toland, and that the second test was somehow covered under that. Maybe, but then why wasn’t the first one?
The second question takes me further down a rabbit hole. Rhea dug out the order from One Medical to Labcorp. You can see below that the CPT codes are on it (what the tests actually are) and also what the related diagnosis codes are.
I of course asked chatGPT what those diagnosis codes were and the answer is
E78.5 = Hyperlipidemia (i.e. high cholesterol)
R73.03 = PreDiabetes
E66.811 = Obesity class 1
M10.9 = Gout
As you might suspect as a pretty typical 60+ year old American, I fit the bill for all those diagnoses. The CPT codes for the tests I had are complete blood count, Metabolic Panel, Hemoglobin (A1C), Lipid Panel, and Uric Acid (which causes gout).
Presumably all of those, with the possible exception of the Gout/Uric Acid, could be seen to be preventative. After all the CMS web site explains that preventative screening is free for “Annual Wellness Visits and Physical Exams, for instance with a primary care doctor and Health Screenings for blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar for diabetes, and various cancer screenings such as colonoscopies and mammograms”.
So why is this not free to me? Rhea from Labcorp suggests that Blue Shield initially issued me a $0 copay EOB but later should have reprocessed that when it got the bill from Labcorp, and told me to pay the $39.94. She also found that in addition to CMS suggesting what should be called preventative, Blue Shield of CA has a very long document with what it thinks is preventative care. You can see and download it here.
I asked ChatGPT to read it for me and after a bit of looking around we (that’s me and ChatGPT) concluded that E78.5 is in the list of applicable ICD-10 diagnoses codes for Annual health appraisal visits, which are a (free) covered service. So my high cholesterol should be screened for free.
On the other hand there’s a whole section on Page 28 of the document discussing pre-diabetes education but it doesn’t explicitly say that an A1C test is covered under the annual wellness visit. And if you go way down, to page 116, there’s a table that suggests that last year a Blue Shield review removed several of the diabetes codes, including R73.03.
Now I am not going to pretend that I understand what the hell is going on in this document, and why (or whether) Blue Shield is able to change what CMS says it should do–if that is what in fact is happening. But it does seem weird.
And again, because there are no actual costs per test from Labcorp (there are charges per test but they are bundled and discounted on the bill), it’s impossible to tell what the contracted cost for each test was, and therefore whether I got some for free (as I think I should have) and what I was actually charged for.
Finally, I got very excited as Blue Shield sent me a message tonight which had an attachment which I think is a response to the grievance that was somehow filed for me by someone from their executive offices in part 2. But the attachment wasn’t properly formatted. So I don’t know what it says!
No less than I’d expect on this adventure.
But hopefully we are close to finding out who is charging whom for what and why!
UPDATE. I called Blue Shield’s grievance line and a nice customer service rep read me the letter that I couldn’t see online. Essentially Blue Shield has asked Brown and Toland to explain what happened. That grievance will take another 30 days! The rep wasn’t able to send it to me in my portal, but she could send me an email (It will be one of those secured ones that are super annoying to open). She told me it was sent while she was on the phone but 30 mins later, it’s not here!
Matthew Holt is the founder and publisher of THCB
Dr Kaelee Brockway on AI for physical therapy training
Dr Kaelee Brockway is a professor of education and physical therapy who has built a series of AI based “patients” for her PT students to train on. Kaelee is a pioneer in using these tools for training. She showed me the personas that she has built with LLMs that are now being used by her students to figure out how to train their soft skills–a huge part of any training. This a great demo and discussion about how clinical professionals are going to use LLMs in their training and their work–Matthew Holt
Owen Tripp, Included Health, talks AI
“So far AI in health care is being used to drive existing profits on workflows and increase revenue per event that patients in the end have to pay for. That’s not a win for anyone long term!” Included Health’s CEO Owen Tripp dives into the present and future use of AI, LLMs, patient self-triage and self treatment and all that. Another interesting conversation on where patient facing AI will end up — Matthew Holt
BTW here’s my Conversation with Ami Parekh & Ankoor Shah
Here’s Owen Tripp discussing Included Health.
Here’s Owen’s piece on AI, What’s in your chatbot?
How come I owe Labcorp $34.94? (Part 4)
By MATTHEW HOLT
For those of you waiting for the Labcorp, Blue Shield of California, Brown & Toland Physicians Physicians update, the ball has been moved a couple of years down the field.
If you want to catch up here is part 1, part 2 and part 3.
You’ll recall we left it with a mystery $34.94 bill which didn’t either fit the official $50 copay amount I have, nor the $0 patient responsibility in my EOB. I got a call from Rhea Fleming, an experienced customer rep at Labcorp, on whose virtual desk this has been dumped. We had a lovely conversation in which we agreed that the co-pay should either have been $50 or $0 but that it’s possible that the co-pay is the lower of $50 or the amount Labcorp was trying to collect.
She had previously called the Blue Shield of California provider line to try to figure this out. Blue Shield had indeed kicked this claim from Labcorp to Brown and Toland the IPA I am assigned to in the HMO product I bought. The charges from Labcorp were $322.28 and the response from B&T was that the contractual price (i.e. what they agreed to pay Labcorp for those tests) was $34.94, hence the “adjustment” of $287.34. However in Labcorp’s system the algorithm interpreted B&T’s response as saying 1) the agreed payment is the $34.94 according to the contract and 2) they were not going to pay so the patient owes the difference. When Rhea Fleming asked Blue Shield’s rep why the patient owed payment on this, the Blue Shield rep said that the procedure code and diagnosis code from my PCP (One Medical) did not count as preventative care. In other words Labcorp has not got paid at all for running these tests so far, because they are according to B&T “not preventative”. Although IMHO, CMS says that they are. And of course as it says my copay is $0 I’m interpreting Blue Shield of California’s EOB as saying that to me!
Hence Labcorp generated the bill for the $34.94 and sent it to me. Which started this whole telenovela.
BTW Rhea’s conclusion was that as none of the tests were “preventative,” Labcorp billed me the $34.94 as that was the total it was contractually owed rather than the $50 copay I am supposed to pay for lab work. I actually checked back in my Labcorp account and found that last year I did in fact pay $50 so perhaps last year I had different tests or somehow they have changed the algorithm. I checked the EOB for that 2024 bill and the total charge was $445.20 of which Blue Shield paid $28.07. No I couldn’t find the Labcorp bill on their system, presumably because I have paid it! Given that I paid $50 for services from Labcorp on that date (yes, it took me 7 months to pay up!), it’s likely that the agreed payment was $78.07 ($50+$28.07) of which I unthinkingly paid the $50 copay. And yes that should have been preventative too. (Perhaps I should ask for that $50 back!!)
BRIEF UPDATE: Rhea from Labcorp looked into this 2024 bill and that is exactly what happened
Then, I had another thought.
It turns out that the lab results this year generated a further concern in my doctor’s mind. (Bear in mind I had the lab tests before the office visit so that we could discuss the results). It seems that my iron levels were a little low, so while I was in the doctor’s office he ordered some more tests specifically about that. As One Medical has techs on site they drew my blood then and there and shipped it to Labcorp.
According to my EOB, Labcorp’s charge for those new tests was $60.79 of which Blue Shield or rather Brown and Toland again paid $0 and created an EOB which again said my patient responsibility was $0. I asked Rhea to check that bill in her system and it turns out that I do NOT owe Labcorp anything on that set of tests. Maybe they were coded as preventative? I tried to find the bill on my patient portal at Labcorp but because I don’t owe anything I haven’t been sent an invoice and without an invoice number you cannot check the bill!
When Rhea ended the call with me, her next move was going to enquire of Blue Shield and Brown and Toland what the reason was for me owing $0 on that bill!
Meanwhile I await the result of the official Blue Shield investigation with interest. Of course this might just have come down to Amazon One Medical coding the tests incorrectly. But it’s all fun and games if you have unlimited patience in American health care.
And of course, this still isn’t over!
Adventures in how screwed up health care is, number 436
By MATTHEW HOLT
(I copied this here from Linked in where it 65+ comments just so I can find it when the story continues) Too painful to write up fully but I am on my 4th transfer in one phone call to MarinHealth trying to get an echocardiogram (EDIT-not an EKG as I originally wrote). They have lost the referral from One Medical twice. I had to download the referral and email it to them (Lucky it’s on the One Medical system). Every person has asked for my DOB and phone number. The guy who got the email, read the referral and transferred me. The latest guy appears very puzzled & wants me to fax him the referral. Eventually he gets me to his supervisor who says that radiology & cardiology are separate and they can’t receive an email because it’s a HIPAA violation. (I claimed to be Lucia Savage & laughed at him). Now I have to figure out how to fax it to them and the supervisor promised to call me back. He had to ask for my phone number….
Oh and I can’t book a echocardiogram on MyChart, but I can book a mammogram.
I’ll follow up in the comments. BTW that phone call was 19 minutes
UPDATE: OK, so I faxed them via a dodgy efax company whose “free trial” I need to remember to cancel. The supervisor did call me back, but for some reason my phone didn’t ring! He left a message and booked an appointment for me. But not in their Marin facility. In the next county over! (And Sonoma is very lovely). A 45 min drive rather than a 10 min drive from my house. I can SEE the appointment in the UCSF MyChart, and I can cancel it. but I cannot request a change or see when I could book one closer to me (presumably at a later date). So I guess I will call back on Monday….
UPDATE: So I called back today and got the appointment changed to the closer location. I had to wait one more day… I know you are all on tenterhooks so I will tell you if my heart works in 2 weeks!
UPDATE to the Update. A human called me and cancelled my appointment. Apparently the tech was out sick. Still no word on whether I have a heart or just a black pit inside my chest
UPDATE: I finally got in and had the Echocardiogram. Marin Health had an iPad based fast check in (well done). I didn’t recognize whose software it was. The echocardiogram took 45 minutes and was a bit like having somone stick their finger in your chest the whole time. Yes I do have a heart! More to come
Rosemarie Day & Me invite you to see Atul Gawande
My friend Rosemarie Day joins me to talk about the Healthcare Leaders for Democracy session coming up on September 4 (Thursday) at 8pm ET 5pm PT. It’s a one hour session with Atul Gawande as the keynote speaker, joined by Don Berwick and John McDonough. It’ll be a fascinating discussion and it’s a fundraiser for Movement Voter Project, but it’s free to sign up.
Rosemarie and I talked about how we work on getting grassroots mobilization for the mid-terms and beyond, and we hope people will come and join.
