Matthew Holt

Senate Deal on Health Care Bill Done

As it's a work day for the Senate worth reporting here that Ben Nelson’s vote has been bought for more Medicaid spending for Nebraska and a complex formula for States to opt out of exchanges being able to fund abortions. So presuming there’s no problems in reconciliation we can expect the reform bill to be done relatively soon. Full details on what’s in the new bill on Think Progress’ The Wonk Room.

The netroots left has been complaining loudly over the last couple of days since Lieberman was bought off by dropping the public option and the Medicare buy-in. Howard Dean and Markos of Daily Kos both called for massive changes to the bill, or killing it and the debate between the “sensible left” and the “this is a sellout to insurers” has got a little silly. However, (unless Bernie Sanders pulls  fast one) none of the more left wing Senators (Sherrod Brown et al) are going to vote against the bill, so what we see now is what we get.

The real issue will be when the voting public finds out that nothing happens for 3 years.

Livongo’s Post Ad Banner 728*90

52 replies »

  1. To show the people of the United States that there is a plan to cover the sick and the poor, but to get Government Officials to see is a concept alone.
    To help cover the sick and the poor is a FASC Concept that states that to build a Health Care Forum within our Government Institution is a Peoples right to do so and this is Protect Under the Constitution as a Human and Civil Right. So in plan words if the poor and the sick could only afford to pay $5.00 to $10.00 per month this would to bring a balance toward the broken tax system, to add up this number 32 million to 100 million sick and poor people x $5.00 per month. This will place back into the system $116 million $to 500 million dollars per month. The cause and effect of this will reduce the purposed Health Care Tax Forum, to bring about a reduced effect so not to a over burden system. Take my faith in this and almost all the poor and sick would be happy to pay in and help rebuild the United States failed tax system. Also To bring about a balance of trust lost between the people and Officials.
    Under a Federal Health Care Group built by my friends and I. {You see the poor, as you see them}, as for them they see them self not poor, but of a different race of people and environment and have faith it that which was in the past that so many do not have a clue of what God and Country is all about.
    Will be up dated today 3/25/2010
    Issue 1.
    FASC tax and pay in Forum, A Concept to help the Poor and Sick.
    FASC Concepts of a guideline of income and a fair payment for the poor to the rich.
    CLASS INCOME MONTHLY PAYMENTS
    {A} formatt for people making up to $29000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $40.00 per month
    {B} up to $19000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $30.00 per month
    {C} up to $12000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $20.00 per month
    {D} from 0.00 income to $9000.00 per year / cost up to 0.00 to $10.00 per month
    MIDDLE CLASS TO THE POOR
    {A} {B} {C} {D} classification based on one person If married policy can be devided or stayed. These are concept numbers to open the mind…………..
    Submitted by Marh Hidabrand,asked would it not be better to build on , instead of droping off of the {A}{B}{C}
    {E} up to $49000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $50.00 per month
    {F} up to $59000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $60.00 per month
    {G} up to $69000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $70.00 per month
    {H} up to $79000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $80.00 per month
    {I} up to $89000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $90.00 per month
    To balance a payment plan to fit within the bills, within a home……….{J} {K} {L} {M} exc………………….
    Need to balance to stay around $200.00 for above income and below $300.00 for the rich ?
    The same incentives apply if husband and wife wish to pay separate.
    The same incentives apply for the poor, even if all they can pay is $3.95 per month. No one is cut out of the rebuilding of the inter structure of Health care and the USA.
    The money is a investment into our further and is to be tax free, just the money paid in.
    You may ask: what about Medicare ? {is it not possible to merge Medicare into this concept ?}
    With in this movement the {A} {B} {C} {D} will remove health care from a company so that a company can see into the building of other projects and put people back to work.
    With the formatted goal of the use of this new concept, to form a more perfect Union within the design of the Health Care program offered, we submitted the up to 2 Trillion dollars per year. This will build a safety net / a buffer to maintain balance.
    The billion dollars per year is at a high EST. based at $10.00 x 250 million people. As you can see the numbers above suggest a very high in pack of funds, we can not project a high in pack because dollars are not a constant.
    at 100 000 000 million people x 10= $1 000 000 000 billion low ball figures
    1 billion x 4 weeks = $4 billion dollars
    4 billion x 12 months = $48 billion dollars
    so at 100 000 00 the numbers would have to increase to $40.00/per month x $40.00
    $40.00 x 48 000 000 000 = $1 220 000 000 000 per year at 100 000 000 people
    In the US the progression is:
    Hundred – 100
    Thousand – 1,000
    Million – 1,000,000
    Billion – 1,000,000,000
    Trillion – 1,000,000,000,000
    Quadrillion – 1,000,000,000,000,000
    and the interfacing of the FASC Card http://www.federalactsecuritycard.mysite.com
    We need to see into the inter structure of the Presidents concept,without this right we can not help,no matter how much we wish to. It would seem that if you do not play follow the leader on just one concept ,that the door is not really open.
    We offer the following concepts and we believe that it will be one that all can respect.
    FASC Concepts of a guideline of income and a fair payment for the poor to the rich.
    This is a concept to build on…….a idea, a way to bring life to hope where there is none.
    CLASS INCOME MONTHLY PAYMENTS
    {A} format for people making up to $29000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $40.00 per month
    {B} up to $19000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $30.00 per month
    {C} up to $12000.00 per year, EST of monthly cost up to $20.00 per month
    {D} from 0.00 income to $9000.00 per year / cost up to 0.00 to $10.00 per month
    MIDDLE CLASS TO THE POOR
    {A} {B} {C} {D} classification based on one person If married policy can be divided or stayed. These are concept numbers to open the mind…………..
    Submitted by Marh Hidabrand,asked would it not be better to build on , instead of dropping off of the {A}{B}{C}
    {E} up to $49000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $50.00 per month
    {F} up to $59000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $60.00 per month
    {G} up to $69000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $70.00 per month
    {H} up to $79000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $80.00 per month
    {I} up to $89000.00 per year,EST of monthly cost up to $90.00 per month
    To balance a payment plan to fit within the bills, within a home……….{J} {K} {L} {M} exc………………….
    Need to balance to stay around $200.00 for above income and below $300.00 for the rich ?
    The same incentives apply if husband and wife wish to pay separate.
    The same incentives apply for the poor, even if all they can pay is $3.95 per month. No one is cut out of the rebuilding of the inter structure of Health care and the USA.
    The money is a investment into our further and is to be tax free, just the money paid in.
    You may ask: what about Medicare ? {is it not possible to merge Medicare into this concept ?}
    With in this movement the {A} {B} {C} {D} will remove health care from a company so that a company can see into the building of other projects and put people back to work.
    With the formatted goal of the use of this new concept, to form a more perfect Union within the design of the Health Care program offered, we submitted the up to 2 Trillion dollars per year. This will build a safety net / a buffer to maintain balance.
    The billion dollars per year is at a high EST. based at $10.00 x 250 million people. As you can see the numbers above suggest a very high in pack of funds, we can not project a high in pack because dollars are not a constant.
    at 100 000 000 million people x 10= $1 000 000 000 billion low ball figures
    1 billion x 4 weeks = $4 billion dollars
    4 billion x 12 months = $48 billion dollars
    so at 100 000 00 the numbers would have to increase to $40.00/per month x $40.00
    $40.00 x 48 000 000 000 = $1 220 000 000 000 per year at 100 000 000 people
    In the US the progression is:
    Hundred – 100
    Thousand – 1,000
    Million – 1,000,000
    Billion – 1,000,000,000
    Trillion – 1,000,000,000,000
    Quadrillion – 1,000,000,000,000,000
    and the interfacing of the FASC Card http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com
    We need to see into the inter structure of the Presidents concept,without this right we can not help,no matter how much we wish to. It would seem that if you do not play follow the leader on just one concept ,that the door is not really open.
    We offer the following concepts and we believe that it will be one that all can respect.
    A FASC Concept, Children should be covered by moms or dads coverage at no extra cost. I once heard that their was a saying that is within the Christian world, it is in the best of man that through a concept of God, that He smiles on those who help the poor. Now this is your faith, as shared with people.
    FASC Concepts covers the web and is now noted to be the largest site in the U.S.A.
     

  2. 3/22/2010
    I had to wait for this Bill to be passed in order to show the Republican Party and GOP and FRC Action that it is the voice of the people that guides the destiny of this Country.
    As predicted , the first stages of the Health Care Bill was passed. Why, you ask ? It is because people wish to be seen for their in put of a view and not unite. What is lost is respect with in a concept of { Freedom Of Choice } to be a part of this system or not, with in this Health Care Force Pay Matrix.
    What is offered by FASC Concepts is the Freedom Of Choice, because we feel it is unconstitutional to force pay into the failures of Health Care Insurance Companies and then Tax that money. As you can see our elected officials are paying little attention to the public. As I reach out to my computer and I knock , knock, knock on the screen, and I say is there any body out there?
    This Health Care issue keeps taking turns and twist that bewilder the mind in thoughts. This $100 trillion dollar system ,as it would seem, I am counting up to $ 8 trillion 682 billion Dollars so far. One guy emailed me and he is up to $27 Trillion dollars.
    You see when Harry Reid added a extra ….almost, $2 Trillion dollars in a tax forum, this through my numbers off with the 1 to 3 year spread of taxes.
    Lets show you this way seeing how I run out of fingers to count on and I do not feel like taking my shoes off…..
    to get a $4 Trillion dollar tax spread, it is based at a 0.25% up to 4 years.
    To be able to see the amount taxed in one year as a whole at 50% is around $8.2 Trillion to $8.8 Trillion, please remember according to Government Officials this is to be a spread tax, 3 to 10 years.. There is over 10 thousand companies I have not even got to yet. So lets take this $ 8 trillion 682 billion Dollars and forget about the other figures, reach into your mind and say ,1 to 3 to 10 years Tax against the Health Care System, then take this 10% tax against the almost $4 Trillion Dollars, your factor must be a multiplication. Then you will see this Tax factor as net value of that system. But of course Government Officials will not show the a net value of a system or that one company, this wold make it to easy for the People to follow the Tax Dollar.
    Remember this tax dollar does not include the split petition of the tax forum of increases in other areas, in the name of Health Care Reform. This tax forum I, or we can have very little effect against.
    As for theses hidden taxes, they are not hidden. They are built into a split petition. They are meant not to be seen, only revealed as the Progressive Capital Tax Forum works the system in order to not over burden the money system. What is lost is trust because Government Officials by considering the public slow witted and as for this Bill, I want to read the Law that is to represent the Bill. This is because one word has a directive and a code and a sentence can lead to a different truth in concept.
    So now it begins, the Civil Rights Law Suits and Constitutional Suits. We are not talking just a few law suits we are talking thousands will be filed because of the Freedom Of Choice is taken away and a Tax against money that is not Government Officials Rights to Tax, the Health Care Money for Coverage.
    Within our web site we suggested to build a Government Web Site that will show the People the monthly income of this Health Care Dollar and what the dollar is used for. But of Course this can not be allowed this would audit the IRS and Government System.
    So, what do you wish to do ? Sit back and complain or unite your voice as one and state that ,{ We believe in the Freedom Of Choice to be a Part Of this Health Care System or not. } We intend to give life to hope to where there is none.
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward. Join the trickle effect and email President Obama …..
    Our goal is to start a trickle effect and the goal is President Obama and this Bill to Law. To merge 250 million veiws for a honest Health Care reform. The trickle effect is , Email President Barack Obama
    Mar 20, 2009 … How to contact President Barack Obama and other White House Officials.
    http://www.emailthepresident.com/ – Cached – Similar
    and state we support FASC Concepts in part or in full, and share your views and be respectful in order to gain respect.
    Health Care within a moral value, is to ,
    { GIVE LIFE TO HOPE WHERE THERE IS NONE }
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google. yahoo, and aol.com
    please take the time and visit all my new friends on the net and if you wish to post with FASC Concepts you will be most welcomed. So join us and share your ideas as one in one voice. Just type in the web address and you will see over Results 1 – 10 of about 6,730 for www fascmovement com and there is over 10,000 post that are 6 month old.

  3. History will be made today if the bill passes, and the history books will be unkind to Pelosi, Reid, and all of the congressmen who vote for Obama Care. They will have sold us out into socilaism by forcing us into something we, the people didn’t want and can’t afford. Obama promised “change you can belive in.” Well, we got change, you can belive that – but it’s not for the better. May God protect us from the socialist Democratic power axis.

  4. Here’s my thing. If we don’t “buckle up” in America we can be fined by law enforcement. The intention of the health care bill is very good. Imagine POTUS trying to do something that he didn’t think would benefit the Americans? Political Suicide. However, being forced by law to get the coverage that they insist we participate in is asinine. Who enforces that law? What are the penalties?
    Moreover, if I want to buy some of the $75 million of prescription drugs off the black market (which they hope doesn’t end up there…they are a business) because I do not have health insurance as I am a 27 yr old independent contractor and haven’t had funds to buy it with the same financial restrictions everyone else in the world seems to have. Need I mention Haiti, Chile, etc. How about everyone help Jonathan B. Morgan by texting “Jonathan” to a predetermined telephone number and $10 will be added to your next phone bill.
    Perhaps the health care proposal will pass? Can you say… BOONDOGGLE! What is the estimated time they expect to implement this reform and laws should it pass? Another Congressional Republican Revolution this year. Whether Health Care passes or not (likely).
    Finally, these 37 or so states wasting the taxpayers money having the Attorney’s General of said states sue the federal government because it would force citizens to become a part of the measurement. How about we have enough to deal with. Federal law supersedes State law anyway. Is it a political ploy to make a public stance for the Governor’s to distance themselves from the President? Obama is not going to campaign for anyone who isn’t supporting his proposal too. Politics! UGH! My major course of study in college was Poli Sci. I have become so cynical now I would give that degree away.

  5. To see the true Health Care Tax forum you must stop thinking in 3-D,This multi tax forum is against a $100 Trillion Dollar system.. …
    To force pay into another system of failures within Health Care Insurance Groups.
    This economy will not balance with this concept of a tax forum against the Health Care System. The issue of how to force pay into this system of Health Care may have worked but I am still troubled over the progressive tax forum within this Bill. It covers so many items and Countries that it only forces the system to adjust itself. In some areas, increases against the people and the troubled economy, and in other areas, less effects will be felt.
    But this is my big problem, Government Officials seek help and they are to proud to ask us, “the true working force of Government.” It is understandable they have failed the People and within the United States Of America all we ask is to see us as who we are and not try to bring us into this world of the intellectual. I guess our Prime Directive is that of Star Trek, so it must be understood that for millions of people we are just as happy as can be making $13.00 per hour and we have no interest in this world of politics, and how to be a Enstine. Government Officials must understand that there is a level of people within different parts of this Country, that seek to be only that they find to make them happy.
    As for this economy well, it is said that the U.S.A. Arms Division has created enough arsenal to destroy every last creature in the world 2 times over,built with tax dollars. This would be funny if not for the irony of it. And now as time has passed Government Officials keep failing. Before 9/11 all the way to today.
    As it is in a world of a system, when employees continue to fail, one or two things happen, one; you get fired, two; if you see into a person a good, then it is political correct to implement a penalty or roll back in pay. But this implement of penalty is more favored in the course of action in the Federal Employment World. So how to fix the economy and unite it with the Health Care issue. It would be in the Countries best interest to implement a 10% per cent penalty against every State, County and Government Official within this Matrix of failures. Hey what is that old saying, what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander. I am serous about this, it is past due to show that our Government Officials they have failed, their system failure reaches into this world of warnings that they brush aside as if the information is not worthy noting. From Pearl Harbor to 9/11/2001 to 3/07/2010 of our tax system and Health Care Reform. This 10% per cent penalty should go into the Health Care Forum.
    The big problem that Government Officials have is that they have no street credit. President Obama still has some but if he does not take his family and step away from these dueling Parties, that fight over this Health Care Dollar, and stand with Us he will lose all credit from the streets to the county.
    President Obama, I would say to you, you have one last chance to regain the hopes and dreams of the American People. To reach out in a concept that states, if there is 250 million people in trouble because of these failures, I would give all my money to them and then I would say to all that I gave money to, “I have no money left, would you all please give me $1.00 back and then I would have $250. million dollars to start all over again.”
    As for this $100,trillion dollar in site………….
    Results 1 – 10 of about 685,000 for net worth of medicine development industry
    Just to show how deep this Health Care Tax split petition reaches. The term split petition is used because of the Tax factor plan that is not seen because of the intent not to show a capital Taxing of close to a $100 trillion dollar package, a yearly system income, not profit…..
    Some have stated that I clam to have spiritual in site or something of the sort. I assure you this is not true, so when I state that I asked God to help, it is my way of saying hey Bobby show me how to work on theses Chevy engines. But I do thank you for the consideration. Consider me a cross of Jethro Bodine from the Beverly Hill Billies with my 10th. Grade education and Vin Diesel from the move Pitch Black.
    So drop on by and see page 100 at our site and follow the blue pill link
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google, look for page 1 american dream official site

  6. Health Care within a moral value, is to ,
    { GIVE LIFE TO HOPE WHERE THERE IS NONE }
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google. yahoo, and Aol.com
    please take the time and visit all my new friends on the net and if you wish to post with FASC Concepts you will be most welcomed. So join us and share your ideas as one in one voice.

  7. Thank You
    I wish to give a great big thank you to all my new friends on the Internet for posting FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward.
    This building block for a honest Health Care Reform has been a great experience and for any one who did not take part, you have truly missed out on what makes Americans Great. This diversity created by Government Officials has failed and now the eyes of 173 million American People watch as now, for the first time Government Officials sit down together as it should be. The out come is yet to be seen. But they know that a anomaly has been created and it is because of the restructuring of The Constitution, The Bill Of Rights, and The Declaration Of Independence, “has been used in it original created forum” as a factor of a peoples right to undo the amendments of Laws that protected Health Care Companies against the People, over a dollar.
    And I wish to say i write what is needed in order that some how I can undo all the wrong I have done in hopes that the slate will be wiped clean….
    Just because our children do not understand I wish to share this again,
    “For days I worked the word diversity in my mind and it came to me that because of this it is not Americas weakness it is our greatest strength. And this is how I will show you.
    Constitution-
    Bill Of Rights –
    The Declaration of Independence-
    United under one forum, builds what is called the Trinity of the Protection Of Laws. This is because these Laws were built by people of faith who gave thanks to God for this wisdom. One would have to see and admire the simplicity of the three as one and at the same time they maintain their independence.”
    On page 100 at our site is the early stages of what is called A Prime Directive for Health Care, so please drop on by and see 173 million peoples views in and for Health Care. And it should be known that this information on page 100 is true and documented in Law and History.
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google look for page 1 American dream official site.
    2/26/2010
    Wow, It was stated that Health care is not a moral issue,hmmmm
    Please allow me to share a little story with you. As I watched my mom die from cancer, and Health care Insurance Companies dumped on her as if she was no more than a dog dieing on the side of the road, i dropped from and out of this system for over 30 years, and now because of system failure, the IT, has come into my life. As I watch Government Officials fight over this Health care Dollar, it reminds me of a bright sunny day in Tennessee while on a friends farm and a little bug flew in to the ground, and the chickens went plum off, boy oh boy the scawking and the feathers went shy high, so I reached down and I took this scared little Health Care Bug from Government Officials, and I have it safely in my hands. As I searched for a way to help, I asked God to help me build a Reform that is of a moral building block for the better good of man kind and to rebuild the National Security of the United states Of America. And you would never guess what God has allowed me to see. This little blog statement you will find true,
    first;
    I wish to give a great big thank you to all my new friends on the Internet for posting FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward.
    This building block for a honest Health Care Reform has been a great experience and for any one who did not take part, you have truly missed out on what makes Americans Great. This diversity created by Government Officials has failed and now the eyes of 173 million American People watch as now, for the first time Government Officials sit down together as it should be. The out come is yet to be seen. But they know that a anomaly has been created and it is because of the restructuring of The Constitution, The Bill Of Rights, and The Declaration Of Independence, “has been used in it original created forum” as a factor of a peoples right to undo the amendments of Laws that protected Health Care Companies against the People, over a dollar.
    And I wish to say i write what is needed in order that some how I can undo all the wrong I have done in hopes that the slate will be wiped clean….
    Just because our children do not understand I wish to share this again,
    “For days I worked the word diversity in my mind and it came to me that because of this it is not Americas weakness it is our greatest strength. And this is how I will show you.
    Constitution-
    Bill Of Rights –
    The Declaration of Independence-
    United under one forum, builds what is called the Trinity of the Protection Of Laws. This is because these Laws were built by people of faith who gave thanks to God for this wisdom. One would have to see and admire the simplicity of the three as one and at the same time they maintain their independence.”
    On page 100 at our site is the early stages of what is called A Prime Directive for Health Care, so please drop on by and see 173 million peoples views in and for Health Care. And it should be known that this information on page 100 is true and documented in Law and History.
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google look for page 1 American dream official site.

  8. Hey, hows that massachusetts election doing for proving your point that we will be for this the more we know it?

  9. Praying For Dollars,
    Paying Christians Health Care Dollars.
    ahhh, well for give me but first before I address this,
    We wish to say thank you to President Obama and the Obama Administration for being the first Government Officials that have created the first Anomaly, in all of U.S. History. Has this Health Care issues reached desperate measures by Government Officials offering money to Christians to pray for the sick, welllll.
    I see what this is, but I must share the truth, it is a 21st. Century Of Caging. The same {two step shuffle} used to gain political support in a issue that has lost its value.
    This anomaly has grown beyond your control Mr. Obama, as over 173 million American People see for the first time the truth and lies , the good and bad within this Bill to Law. Thousands of Companies seek to move out of the U.S.A., or just close up shop, people are Boycotting this Bill to Law.
    Yea, it would be safe to say that 173 million people are just shaking their heads. As a father would when his child has done something stupid.
    President Obama stated that he has got a lot of letters from people who are sick and as of yet he has not seen what is within the hearts of the American People. You already have a Medicare or Medicate tax forum in place, but according to insurance companies it is to base payments according to where you live. To stand with the people to build a Health Care Forum within our Government is a concept of freedom of choice. To bring companies into the forum to Rebuild America,is to say that the people will not allow any company to faultier, that stands with the people, to build the most powerful Health Care Reform ever seen.. And all Government Officials had to do is ask and millions of people would step forward.
    As the news of a Boycott grows it only widens the size of this anomaly. But no ! You all are still running around like the chickens after a little bug. Well….I did warn you that I have this little Health Care Bug in my hands.
    As the last 27 pages are posted at our site, people will see all the issues under one web site, as stated before, the good the bad and the ugly…..the last pages from page 49 to 100 will place 173 million people and their views as one voice. I did state that I would do this and I Know that I put a smile on Government Officials face, so allow me to show you how i did it, I used the Artificial Intelligence of the Internet. To build a Health Care Forum by the People in or Against the Bill.
    Out of all of the Government Officials only one opened a blogged at
    The American Spectator . This company posted http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on the net and Congressman Ryan dropped off his little blog.
    But anyway, what we are dealing with is that some Officials think that because I lack the ability to stand before them as a Kindred Intellect that what I write does not hold truth, well, thats ok, All Good Things Come To Those Who Wait. And I assure you that this anomaly is not going away any time soon. But I do offer my congratulations again to the Obama Administration and theses Law Makers In And for The People Of The United States Of America.
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    do a search on google or yahoo and dont forget to click repeat search link to see the web interfacing at work.

  10. It is much deeper then this, DNA testing for Health Care Companies to pick and chose, this is the story we found on,d.n.a. testing to be able to get health care
    for the futher…………….
    The New York Times
    1.Insurance Fears Lead Many to Shun DNA Tests – New York Times
    Feb 24, 2008 … She worried that she might not be able to get health insurance, … And even doctors who recommend DNA testing to their patients warn them …
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/health/24dna.html – Similar
    Insurance Fears Lead Many to Shun DNA Tests
    Victoria Grove wanted to find out if she was destined to develop the form of emphysema that ran in her family, but she did not want to ask her doctor for the DNA test that would tell her.
    She worried that she might not be able to get health insurance, or even a job, if a genetic predisposition showed up in her medical records, especially since treatment for the condition, alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, could cost over $100,000 a year. Instead, Ms. Grove sought out a service that sent a test kit to her home and returned the results directly to her.
    Nor did she tell her doctor when the test revealed that she was virtually certain to get it. Knowing that she could sustain permanent lung damage without immediate treatment for her bouts of pneumonia, she made sure to visit her clinic at the first sign of infection.
    But then came the day when the nurse who listened to her lungs decided she just had a cold. Ms. Grove begged for a chest X-ray. The nurse did not think it was necessary.
    “It was just an ongoing battle with myself,” recalled Ms. Grove, of Woodbury, Minn. “Should I tell them now or wait till I’m sicker?”
    The first, much-anticipated benefits of personalized medicine are being lost or diluted for many Americans who are too afraid that genetic information may be used against them to take advantage of its growing availability.
    In some cases, doctors say, patients who could make more informed health care decisions if they learned whether they had inherited an elevated risk of diseases like breast and colon cancer refuse to do so because of the potentially dire economic consequences.
    Others enter a kind of genetic underground, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars of their own money for DNA tests that an insurer would otherwise cover, so as to avoid scrutiny. Those who do find out they are likely or certain to develop a particular genetic condition often beg doctors not to mention it in their records.
    Some, like Ms. Grove, try to manage their own care without confiding in medical professionals. And even doctors who recommend DNA testing to their patients warn them that they could face genetic discrimination from employers or insurers.
    Such discrimination appears to be rare; even proponents of federal legislation that would outlaw it can cite few examples of it. But thousands of people accustomed to a health insurance system in which known risks carry financial penalties are drawing their own conclusions about how a genetic predisposition to disease is likely to be regarded.
    As a result, the ability to more effectively prevent and treat genetic disease is faltering even as the means to identify risks people are born with are improving.
    “It’s pretty clear that the public is afraid of taking advantage of genetic testing,” said Dr. Francis S. Collins, director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the National Institutes of Health. “If that continues, the future of medicine that we would all like to see happen stands the chance of being dead on arrival.”
    Caught in a Bind
    For Ms. Grove, 59, keeping her genetic condition secret finally became impossible. When her symptoms worsened she was told to come back to the clinic before antibiotics would be prescribed. But there had been a snowstorm that day, and she could not summon the strength to drive.
    “I have alpha-1,” she remembers sobbing into the phone. “I need this antibiotic!”
    The clinic called in the prescription.
    Ms. Grove, who does freelance accounting from home and has health insurance through her husband’s employer, allowed herself to be identified here because she said she felt an obligation to others — including some in her own family — to draw attention to the bind she sees herself in.
    “Something needs to be done so that you cannot be discriminated against when you know about these things,” she said. “Otherwise you are sicker, your life is shorter and you’re not doing what you need to protect yourself.”
    Employers say discrimination is already prohibited in the workplace by the Americans with Disabilities Act and existing laws governing privacy of medical records. But employee rights advocates say nothing in those laws explicitly prevents employers hard-pressed to pay for mounting health care costs from trying to screen out employees they know are more likely to get sick.
    Courts have yet to rule on the subject. When the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission sued the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway for secretly testing the blood of employees who had filed compensation claims for carpal-tunnel syndrome in an effort to discover a genetic cause for the symptoms, the case was settled out of court in 2002.
    And in 2005 when Eddy Curry, then the center for the Chicago Bulls, refused a genetic test to learn if he was predisposed to a heart ailment, the team traded him to the New York Knicks.
    Insurers say they do not ask prospective customers about genetic test results, or require testing. “It’s an anecdotal fear,” said Mohit M. Ghose, a spokesman for America’s Health Insurance Plans, whose members provide benefits for 200 million Americans. “Our industry is not interested in any way, shape or form in discriminating based on a genetic marker.”
    Henry Massingale
    FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
    in our on going search for reform of a moral value
    http://www.fascmovement.mysite.com on google

  11. I have a question on the new health care bill. It makes it illegal for me to not have health care insurance. If I can’t afford the premiums, will I be charged with a misdemeanor or a felony? And exactly how many Americans are they willing to turn into criminals?

  12. Courts have help PPOs in America liable for “sterring” people to a particular provider. If I push, even slightly, someone to go to Costa Rica for a surgery and something goes wrong I will be named in the suit. Additionally if I actually strongly want someone to go to Costa Rica then I need to make it an attractive proposition for them to do so. One way to accomplish this is to offer them the same protections they are afforded here. If I eliminate the argument/concern “what happens if they botch the curgery” then I have increased the chances of them accepting my offer.
    I’m obviously not going to assume any liability by suggesting someone go to run of the mill third world hospital. If it is an accredited facility catering to tourist then my risk is minimial and I can assume this laibilty and still save money.

  13. Nate-
    On second looks I realize what you are implying that malpractice protection is raised to that of this country.
    Sorry but the American laws are not portable. Just because you are an American is not going to induce a Thai court to apply American laws for case involving American patient.
    So could you try that once again, how if something goes wrong overseas would be paid for by United, BCBS etc?
    In other words the punitive/economic damages for negligent procedures would be paid by United, BCBS etc?
    Since we pay the premiums for our health insurers it implies we pay for the mistakes of overseas providers. Is this what you are saying?

  14. Nate,
    Obviously to you uninsured mean nothing more than guinea pigs or some neanderthals. Why wouldn’t malpractice protection be important to that group?
    Does your love for your own life reduce just because you are uninsured? It’s not that malpractice is not important for them. It’s just that when you are in Mogadishuland you don’t scream for patient rights or dignity. You just choose from what you have.
    Over to insured group. Please show me one link where insurers such as United/BCBS global companion are offering malpractice protection? Under what law are they obliged to pay for provider’s mistakes? If they are offering for overseas provider then why not for domestic providers?
    Now over to this convoluted statement- ‘My point is malpractice is not lowered to the level of that in other countries but is in fact raised to that of this country.’.
    Where is malpractive protection raised when penalty is capped out? In absolute terms penalty is still very high compared to other nations. Yet after taking out attorney fees there ain’t much difference. You don’t anything by giving away nothing.
    By the way, our interests do align. You want to do aways with regulations and ship them all oversease to help you provide affordable high deductible plans. In fact you will have double whammy winner. Give them $20K deductible plans so that they no option but to go overseas while under deductible. And when over deductible you put them on a plane and send them abroad. The whiff of freedom in those wild west places will be curing enough.

  15. My point is malpractice is not lowered to the level of that in other countries but is in fact raised to that of this country.
    When the insurers and payors offer medical tourist the same protections they have at home is when Medical Tourism will become more attractive.
    There are two markets for Medical Tourism that have widely divergent profiles. American’s that self pay becuase they are uninsured, malpratice protection is not nearly important to these people, then there are those that are insured that sending them to costa rica saves the systems money. The later is 83% of the population and obviously where the growth is.

  16. Nate,
    You have mischaracterized the conversation. It’s not about how medical tourism works but US malpractice protection versus foreign malpractice protection.
    Mistakes happen despite best intentions and greatest facilities. How do you handle those cases which may appear like negligence to patient family?
    Here, have a look at the death of Josh Goldberg in Thailand-
    http://www.bumrungraddeath.com/
    Now you raised a very interesting point. You mentioned that patients should buy insurance should something go wrong. I don’t know if you closely thought about it. What you are essentially suggesting is that patients buy malpractice insurance.
    I think the idea is absolutely brilliant. It will reduce doctor’s burden and give patients more choice.
    Keeping apart the red herrings, what I am trying to tell you is that once malpractice protection is diluted to close to foreign levels, this huge mental barrier against medical tourism will go away.
    Laws and regulation, while they could be chocking in many instances, you need to understand, that they are big job retainers in many instances. I have watched the procurement and finance managers wring pennies out outsourcers. Yet, you put the word ‘law’ or ‘federal mandate’ in front of an initiative, watch how all outsourcing stops and all the money of the world is made available.
    You specifically asked about advantage of HIPAA. So let me tell you one advantage. It prevented/delayed IT outsourcing in healthcare industry and thus associated job loss.
    So next time you talk about limiting malpractice protection do think that you provide one more helping hand to outsouring industry.
    As a big proponent of medical toursim industry, I can only say ‘thank you’ and ask you what other favor could you do for us.

  17. Vikram you really need to question information pushed at you, specially when it is from partisians with no knowledge of what they are talking about. If you research how medical tourism works you would know your not flying over there and picking a random facility the locals also use. Usually you are being treated in a facility the locals don’t have access to. They usually have accrediation the local facilities don’t, they are arranged by companies that offer extra protection and guarantees.
    If you go there your not receiving care that Thai’s receive, from the system they use, you are receiving care from for what all purposes is an american facility staffed by Thais. There is also plenty of insurance options to buy to protect you in case something does go wrong and you can still save a fortune. If your looking for a back alley bypass of course your taking huge risk but you do the same thing seeing most Medicaid providers in this country.

  18. RMichael, in view of your goods/rights theory, could you explain the difference between the right to health care and the sixth Amendment provision of the right “to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence”? Other, of course, than the fact that we have not amended the constitution to grant the right to health care just yet.

  19. Nate,
    Thanks for clarification. Yes 3K figure is the malpractice award for Thai citizens. Foreign patients are also covered by Thai law.
    Lack of legal protection should something go wrong is always the big barrier.
    http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/25411659/ns/health-health_care/
    This is what author says-“If you think the locals goofed up your care, you will quickly find out that the sort of legal recourse you have in terms of a malpractice lawsuit is nothing like what exists in the U.S.”
    I agree that attorney fees are obscene and I fully give credit to Bush/right for trying legal reform. However, the reality is that attorneys will continue to corner large amount of penalty. Patients will continue getting peanuts.
    And if you limit penalty, patients will get half peanut and bust the myth of US malpractice protection.

  20. Nate, could you explain your issues with COBRA, HIPAA and Women Rights, please?
    Wouldn’t all these things be unnecessary if people had insurance independently from employment and uniform across the board (one fee schedule and one set of benefits) with no small print for exactly what and when and how things are covered or not covered or partially covered under certain circumstances on certain calendar dates in some geographical regions for particular providers….. etc. etc. etc.?

  21. I still think there is a 40%, maybe 50% chance abortion will kill The Barack Obama Health Bribery Act of 2010. It would take only about 41 Dems—pro-choicers, anti-abortionists and true Blue Dogs. I used 8 hours and 5,500 words to summarize and comment on the amendment alone. The bribes are in the dozens to unions, hospitals, physicians, dentists, nurses, academics, communities, states, governors, senators and anyone else who might influence Senators or be a Senator. Take 20 minutes to read my summary and you’ll know more about the amendment than any Senator and more than 99.5% of people in health care.

  22. rbar the senate bill actually makes a number of huge changes, actually more like planting time bombs in the current system to destroy it. Granted that is what most people on here want, but it is going to subject the public to 20 years of uneeded cost and BK the country in the process.
    It wasn’t all that long ago when I got into the business that we had a fraction of the paperwork we do today. Almost all of it is government generated. They don’t have COBRA, HIPAA, Women’s Right, and the screwed up legal system we do. I remember when you use to be able to read a plan doc and understand it, now lawsuits have turned it into a legal montrosity hardly anyone can understand. 45 years of government fixing HC have turned it into a mess. All the CMS, Medicare, DOL, DOI reporting that has to be done is why admin is as high as it is.

  23. I still am unable to figure out why people say all Americans can’t get health care. I just went to a clinic today where everyone there was able to see the doctor whether they had insurance or not. They either had insurance or had public assistance. I do like some of the health care bill, but not the huge cost to so many who have worked hard all their lives. The government has no right to dictate the morality of paying for someone else’s care.

  24. Jd, what are you arguing for, or stand for? As far as I understand the current senate bill, it will not change much of the current insurance market in the US – that means, we will be stuck with the employer based system …
    From the Commonwealth paper you seem to refer to: “Both Dutch and Swiss insurance systems operate with relatively low overhead costs by U.S. standards: administrative and profit-margins account for about 5 percent of premiums.”
    OK – how do you want to get there? I have worked/trained in German, French and US hospitals. It was the US that had the most absurd extent of paperwork and dedicated paperpushers. If you want to get the US to Swiss standards, how do you suggest getting there from the status quo, and how does the senate bill contribute?
    “And in any case, we have a lot of non-profits, too, and the for-profits would be competing with them.” – don’t understand, are you talking about HC providers or insurers?

  25. first no one on the right is saying get rid of malpratice awards. I always found it ironic how the left will rail against any money being spent on insurance companies but they have no problem with attorney’s making billions. Instead of making lawyers rich a good malpratice system would get that money in the hands of the injured. If someone is honestly hurt by poor care we should be able to find a way to make them whole without a 30% leaching.
    I have never heard a person use lack of malpratice protection as a reason to not go overseas. I would also question the 3K payout as I am almost certain you are including domestic payouts which are not the same as the protection afforded to Americans that travel.
    The penalty cap is not 250-750 that is only punative, economic is not capped.

  26. Nate, politics aside. Just a question on patient safety.
    One big reason espoused for consumers to not to travel to offshore helathcare providers is lack of strong legal framework to protect patient safety. As an example in Thailand average malpractice penalty is about $3K. In US it is about $300K.
    Given the penalty cap of about $250K-$750K in 27 states it is all but certain that after deducting attorney fees aggrieved patients & families only get peanuts.
    My question is, would tort reform dilute the vaunted patient legal protection record and eliminate this mental barrier against receiving care overseas?

  27. A year ago, I commented on how good Republicans are. They wage wars, make country stronger and even reduce taxes for all at same time. I had forecasted that Democrats will discover the same fountain of wealth- the deficit financing.
    It will be brilliant if next elections is fought on on the issue of national deficit. I would really like to see a congress that impose war tax and starts national debate on what is important and what is not in preparation of winding down many programs.

  28. As I sit in Cleveland watching Democrats fall weekly to coruption charges, to then head home to Vegas where we have as many commissionaires getting out of jail as we do sitting, then listening to 1+ years of healthcare debate without a single mention of reducing fraud where are you hiding these legions? There is not a single sentence in the liberals bill that addreesses fraud.
    Let me remind you of how this country works, politicians are SUPPOSED to represent those that elect them. By overwhleming margins the public wants tort reform and medicare fraud reform, Liberals refuse to address either.

  29. rbar, I don’t know how you can look at the examples of multi-payer universal health care systems around the world and make a statement like “I do not think that private insurance can be as effective as some kind of single payer or fund based system.” The universal health care systems using private payers, either wholly or partly, exist. The data is available for comparison. The Commonwealth Fund has even shown that their administrative costs are in line with those of single payer nations. Success is all about how you pay them and regulate them.
    The reasons you give don’t really make sense (shareholder profit, enrollment/fluctuation cost of the employer based system). I agree that using for-profit companies is not the optimal way to go, but at least the Netherlands uses them. And in any case, we have a lot of non-profits, too, and the for-profits would be competing with them. As for the employer-based system, hunh? Even if it is a bad idea, multi-payer doesn’t imply employer-based.
    Nate, you convince yourself of the silliest things sometimes. Liberals are quite able to get worked up about waste and fraud both by private enterprise and by government. Examples are legion.
    One thing that tends to be true is that liberals get more worked up about waste and fraud in the defense industry than healthcare (unless it comes from pharma or insurers), and this is partly because liberals do indeed tend to misunderstand the cost drivers in health care. But so do conservatives (the obsessions with malpractice and cost-sharing).

  30. Margiat-
    No, there will not be an across-the-board cut of Medicare reimbursements to physicians by over 20%
    But the revised bill does keep an independent Medicare Payment Advisory Commission that would oversee Medicare spending–and would be protected from Congressional meddling–and lobbyists!
    An amendement to the bill sponsored by Rockefeller, et. al. would strengthen this commission.
    Keep an eye out for news about what is happening with this amendmendt. It is very important. Lieberman is a co-sponsor, which could draw moderate support. (See my two most recent posts on the bill (www.healthbeatblog.org) to explain why Lieberman is a supporter.

  31. “The real issue will be when the voting public finds out that nothing happens for 3 years.”
    What do you mean nothing? Taxes go up, regualtions increase, plans are mandatoryly changed, and cost will increase considerably more then it would have otherwise. What you meant was non of the supposed positive beenfits kick in for three years.
    “People who get their news from major news outlets couldn’t tell you three things this bill does with any accuracy”
    Your right jd, but the democrats that are voting for it couldn’t tell you three things either. Further they can’t even accurtly tell you three benefits of Medicare, HIPAA, COBRA, or any other healthcare bill they have ever passed.
    “Oh wait, they argued vehemently that we shouldn’t touch Medicare benefits. Funny how that works out.”
    Only funny in the sad way liberals can’t grasp basic logic. Medicare “benefits” are not the problem. We can deliver the “benefits” designed in medicare with no problem. What we can’t afford is all the fraud and waste, only a liberal would call that a benefit. That is why liberals propose cutting reimbursements, which means needed and accpetable care will be reimbursed at a lower rate while we still continue to pay for waste and fraud. Wouldn’t the common sense answer jd be to pay more for what benefits should be delivered and not pay for the waste a fraud? A concept foreign to liberals.

  32. Yes, We have witness the results of Graft, Bribery,and sanctioned malfeasance by Government Officials.However, how complicit we have become to expect and to embrace such sub-minimal Standards. This bill, if it is passed, is a testimonial of our Failure, as Americans, to envision the future and to uphold American Values. The moral Values of our forefathers are not present in America Today, as some would like to portray.
    We have not reformed Health Insurance,but rather expanded insurance’s hold on uninsured Americans. Along with the promise from Congress, that Choice and caps on premiums and out of pocket Expenses are being removed from Contention.Further, It removes the crux of the argument. Free Market Principles;know to be Competition.
    I can understand some who have everything to be satisfied with this Bill. It drives a greater captive population to their doors and increases profits. However, it is shameful for self absorbed Narcissists to stand in the way of others. This may be a success to some but to others it is a Monumental Failure.

  33. “jk-This whole health issue could have been approached differently by lining up and voting on issues upon which both sides agreed.”
    Like what- Comparative effectiveness research?
    drug imports?
    reducing spend on seniors and putting on younger population?
    sin tax?
    end of life planning?
    anti-monopoly amendment?
    promote vegeterianism?
    obesity tax?
    How about we ourselves doing that bipartisan stuff. Could you share link to Republican healthcare plan? We can go section by section and identify the common areas.

  34. Adam,
    I shared the concern about cost explosion in my first post. But:
    “However, it’s all taxes, premium increases, and medicare cuts for 4 years. By the time 2012 rolls around, you’re going to have a public which is raging mad.” – that’s just silly. We already have part of the public mad already, and almost all of them have no idea what’s going on, and there are no workable ideas for cost containment. And that Sarah Palin is the “kingmaker” reflects the despiccable state of the US right wing very well. And BTW, what medicare cuts are you referring to? What I have read about is marginal at best, fiscally reasonable, and will not trigger substantial unhappiness.
    As with the Iraq war, our elites have largely failed us. It would have been time to start telling Americans that you cannot expect unlimited and unreasonable imaging, screening and hospital valet parking without paying a lot for it.

  35. Adam, while I do share in your concern (or hope) that 4 years of watching the negative effects of the bill and of the status quo, without experiencing any of the benefits, may prove disastrous to the Democrats, it is also possible that the mounting problems will force incremental legislation to speed up some of the promises in the bill and maybe even go beyond what they manage to pass now.
    The outcomes will largely depend on the quality of the general recovery of the US economy.
    As to Ms. Palin, I have enough respect for the Republican party to prevent me from making the assumption that she will have any effect on their future endeavors.

  36. The healthcare debate has shown that intelligent debate is not public’s forte.
    Ben Nelson will get re-elected for anti-abortion measures. Of course not one vote will be cast against him for managing to get anti-monopoly amendments removed.
    Charity is being performed against the will of the underprivileged.

  37. Oh Peter, Peter, Peter:
    First of all, if a new constituency were to come to enjoy the bills benefits right away, then you’d at least have a pro-bill crowd pushing against repeal. However, it’s all taxes, premium increases, and medicare cuts for 4 years. By the time 2012 rolls around, you’re going to have a public which is raging mad.
    Republicans don’t have to offer an alternative (even though they will). They just have to wait for the fury to build over time.
    As to Palin, if you knew anything about Republican politics, you’d know that she is the king or, at least, the kingmaker. Simply can’t win without her endorsement.

  38. “and many groups will have felt the impact of higher taxes and premiums.”
    Adam, what do you think the “impact” will be (taxes & premiums) without at least a push for “reform”? Will doing nothing result in lower premiums and taxes?
    I take jd’s analysis very seriously, but it’s hard for me to see the passage of this bill as a game changer. At least the 4 years will give time for many to read the bill, but more importantly, try to understand its real impact – and figure out how to game it. From “Sicko” by Rep. Charles Rangle, “Michael, we don’t actually read the bills.”
    “All this yammering about single payer is tiring.”
    Well John, all this yammering about how tweaking insurance will save us is also tiring. Look for a continued push for at least greater and greater government control when y’all figure out insurance companies and providers don’t have patients or patient cost control on their agenda.
    “There may be a window of repeal, if Republicans control both houses…”
    Repeal to what Adam? Republicans have not offered anything of substance yet.
    “who, with Palin’s backing”, well if she is your benchmark for intelligent leadership then you’re in worse trouble than your vote for Bush (twice?).

  39. There may be a window of repeal, if Republicans control both houses and win the WH in 2013. At that point, no new constituencies will have yet come to enjoy the bill’s “benefits”, and yet the HC system will have already been seriously degraded (not least because of massive physician retirements), and many groups will have felt the impact of higher taxes and premiums.
    This will be a key campaign issue, which is why Romney would be a horrible choice for Republicans. This provides an entree for someone like Paul Ryan who, with Palin’s backing, might ride this issue all the way.

  40. Yes, very exciting….
    What exactly is supposed to happen over the next 4 years? Do we just wait and maybe read the bill for 4 years?
    One more thing, am I reading the CBO document correctly and the 21% Medicare fees reduction will be enacted after all?

  41. Historic example of the degradation of our political process. If only as much focus was given to the actual issue as was to closed door wheeling and dealing required to buy votes.
    Slow and steady wins the race, would liked to have seen a step-wise, bipartisan approach to reform issues rather than having it shoved down our collective throats. Whether the bill is appropriate or not, a dismal example of failed representation.
    So much for transparency and exemption of special interest. Kudos for bringing national attention to our failing health care system, shame on us for the manner in which it has been handled.

  42. The moment is truly historic in the sense that the ball gets rolling on healthcare reform. Hopefully the discussion and debate will not stop.

  43. In case anyone wants to see a few actual details…
    The Congressional Budget Office’s analysis of the merged Senate health care bill, via The Wonk Room.
    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/12/19/cbo-managers/
    Dr. Lippin is correct. If this steaming pile of crap makes it to the finish line it is still better than the constipation that preceded it. It truly is historic.
    All this yammering about single payer is tiring. I’m in favor of the notion but there is no way in hell private insurance will vanish. At least not in our lifetimes. Too many tentacles still out of the bucket: workers comp, long-term care, auto and liability medical expenses, and bullet-proof concierge practices.
    IMO 400% of FPL is a fairly good place to start subsidies. And Medicare Advantage should never have been allowed anyway, another example of corporate welfare.

  44. Sorry jd, the Massachusetts experiment is nothing but an expensive boondoggle. It mandates coverage without care and does not control costs.

  45. Nothing like promising to vote for something before you have read it. This whole health issue could have been approached differently by lining up and voting on issues upon which both sides agreed. Then proceed to eat the elephant one bite at a time instead of the whole thing. There really is NO URGENCY is getting this done by Christmas.

  46. jd, your words sound reasonable and not reminiscent of lynchmobs or cavemen.
    I do not think that private insurance can be as effective as some kind of single payer or fund based system (reason 1: shareholder profit, 2: enrollment/fluctuation cost of the employer based system).
    Obama should have started with medicare offered to all, with continued exemption for medical benefits and a tax credit for privately insured. My impression is that he banks on HC money for his campaign funds and therefore desired an industry friendly bill, rebuffing Dean but not Lieberman. As a nation, we are crippled by absurd health care costs, given our mediocre outcomes … the current system, the post reform system and any Ron Paul fee for service system will bring our HC and tax spending to European levels and beyond, with countless medical bankruptcies, but without any good infrastructure (except, of course, medical). Or are there some benefits I overlook? Isn’t the total spending cap still there?

  47. randy faria, I’ll bet you a stick of plutonium that one year from today the public will be much more positive than negative on the legislation. The media did a horrible job explaining the good parts of this bill. People who get their news from major news outlets couldn’t tell you three things this bill does with any accuracy, and certainly couldn’t tell you about the cost control measures (modest as they are) that are present in it. The public will never want to roll this back, only change it for the better.
    Here’s what you and MD as HELL are going to hate: the more people get to know it, the more it will become accepted just like social security and medicare. Remember how Republicans argued in this debate that we should roll back Medicare benefits? Oh wait, they argued vehemently that we shouldn’t touch Medicare benefits. Funny how that works out.
    Anyone predicting doom should take a close look at the Massachusetts experiment. We will muddle through, and the obligations that universal coverage brings on government and taxation will be the best prod we could have to get moving sooner rather than later on the reforms that the health care interest groups oppose because they restrict their revenue.

  48. a historic disater.
    What a despicible process. Outright buying of votes, closed door negotiations, backroom deals (how’s that “telvised on C-span” lie working out for all of us?.) The bill got through last night, right? I’m sure they all read and undersand eavery clause in those 2,000 pages by today. I mean, it would be too much to ask them to dealy until they (and the public) read the bill and voted in Jauary right? The provisions do not take place for 3-4 years!!!!! WHY CANT WE READ THE BILL FIRST???
    Despicible. Represhensible. This is passing any pig lableled health care just to declare “victory” The only positive is that this bill could have been far worse.
    Take one final good look at Washington in the Winter folks. It will be your last as members of Congress.
    I am mad enough to chew plutonium over the way this has been rammed down our throats against the wishes of the vast majority of Americans. And don’t argue on semantics. Any recent poll that asks specifically about the proposals being debated and not a generic “do you want reform” question show OVERWHELMINGLY we do not want this bill.
    This is our government at its very worst..along with the out of control prok barrel spending. How can you support the other states buying off Nebraska and Louisiana for the senate votes? THis is the lowest point for the American Congress since Dredd Scott.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.